This is "From a Different Point of View," a feature where I can discuss a series of comic books with another writer. In this case, it is a CBR itself Eileen Gonzalez: who will go over the history of the Alegers with me, story with a story!
We continue with Avengers # 16, "The Old Order Changeth," by Jack Kirby, Stan Lee and Dick Ayers.
Eileen Gonzalez: How dramatic!
Eileen Gonzalez: But before we get the new order, we must type the final plot points from the last time, ie the Masters of evil.
Eileen Gonzalez: It shouldn't take long.
Brian Cronin: How light is that?
Brian Cronin: This big issue and yet they are like, "Ah man, we only last edition of the pages, did not?"
Click the button below to start this article quickly.
Brian Cronin: That's one of the dangers of the Marvel Method, as well, as sometimes happens when you are plotting a story, you can go long.
Brian Cronin: In this case, Kirby's other pages were 15 so good that they obviously decided to extend it to this issue rather than do some editing.
Eileen Gonzalez: This is probably the best thing.
Brian Cronin: How impressive is it that the Avengers have a specific plan to “let us know another aspect when we can get to grips with the bad people without fear of hurting injuries”?
Brian Cronin: It makes you wonder why Thor did not send the GUYS BAD to the other dimension and that he would do it with him, as he did back in one of the earliest Honorary Masters stories, but why would he take down?
Eileen Gonzalez: It also amazes me why it does not always do this! Fights would be much faster and cleaner this way.
Eileen Gonzalez: And you love Enchantress and Executioner skedaddling as soon as everyone else disappears. Apparently, the city is available to you, and you just leave. Okay, so.
Brian Cronin: The chauffeur is from the last issue
Brian Cronin: So the world is their oyster!
Brian Cronin: Isn't this issue the issue?
Brian Cronin: They function as a sociopaths.
Brian Cronin: I think Kirby and Lee accidentally pulled a lot of casualties in the last issue.
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. It is not surprising that three fifths of staff decide that they need a break.
Brian Cronin: "This dimension eliminates … melting beams. That's sense, right?"
Eileen Gonzalez: This really is a useful feature.
Eileen Gonzalez: But sure that Thor hammer works okay!
Brian Cronin: Lee even wants to hang a lantern on the non-use of the Wasp!
Brian Cronin: That was an interesting moment.
Eileen GonzalezBut she does at least a great job to lead the next scene.
Brian Cronin: Ha! True. " Oh hey, is that right, Cap did not go on some kind of mission suicide mission?
Brian Cronin: Cap is nice guy. It gives a nice burial to those people, even Zemo.
Brian Cronin: Rick, by the way, is back looking like a teenager.
Brian Cronin: What the last thing was a bit strange and Rick suddenly aging in his 20 years.
Eileen Gonzalez: I am confused about why Cap and Rick are avoiding these bullets. Do they not have justice and courage on their side? Isn't that enough?
Eileen Gonzalez: And then Cap creates it is not completely crazy by jumping on the shooters. Perfect!
Brian CroninKirby is a wonderful panel, however!
Brian Cronin: And so Cap and Rick begin an adventure to Planes, Trains and Automobiles style.
Brian Cronin: Just to keep them out of New York and the Avengers rip up the IDEA of the Avengers.
Eileen Gonzalez: I know that they later said that Avengers were in New York City to make this decision without consulting the others, but it seems still polite.
Brian Cronin: Is a complete dick move it.
Brian Cronin: There was no reason this could not wait a few days until Cap got back.
Brian Cronin: But you like, what is the big move made by Lee and Kirby. How many other companies would be willing to blow the status quo on a common title like this early in the run?
Brian Cronin: It's just a heavy idea.
Brian CroninHowever, this also shows the origin of the Marvel Methods, as Lee wrote X-Men and Tales of Suspense, so he was familiar with the Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Hawkeye.
Brian CroninOtherwise, though he knows this never happens.
Eileen Gonzalez: True! I like their reasons. Did they think that Thor and Iron Man were very big names who did not need the publicity that Avengers provided, and instead wanted to give those heroes little knowledge of them? looking forward to boost their demand?
Brian Cronin: That's precise. And leaving Cap behind to secure the book.
Brian CroninSoon, however, Lee claimed that the Cap be removed, as well, for the same reason.
Eileen Gonzalez: Hm, they seem to want to leave at least one big name to attract new readers.
Brian CroninI think the idea was that the other characters were very popular by the time he claimed that the Cap should be taken out.
Brian Cronin: It is also important to note when this happened
Brian CroninCap was originally laid in Tales of Suspense.
Brian CroninSo this is the only place where modern America would be seen for Captain America.
Eileen Gonzalez: Was the Giant-Man and the Wasp at this point? I remember you mention that it was canceled.
Brian Cronin: They were still there, but as they had only two other questions after this, they probably knew they were writing them out when they wrote this question.
Eileen Gonzalez: I guess these two were serious about vacation being required!
Brian Cronin: I love the line of Thor's trial of the gods.
Brian Cronin: Lee now makes a great job talking about the nature of these things with these heroes.
Brian Cronin: "What about the trial of the gods? Who knows him?"
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha, yeah. There are better things to do! Like the team to dissolve! That's the most interesting way.
Brian Cronin: It is wonderful that Foichí suggests that they all go on holidays.
Brian Cronin: One thing to say, "I think I need a break," but no, it's "We should take ALL holidays."
Brian Cronin: It's really curious that they don't use, “Remember how I died two issues since? I think I have to get more out of that” as an excuse.
Brian Cronin: It seems to be an explanation that would have been built into it?
Eileen Gonzalez: She did not want to be like the weak link, I feel. But when the Hank dialogue is right after the decision to do so.
Brian Cronin: It's so lame.
Eileen Gonzalez: I mean, they almost all die at different points. Suck it up, Jan!
Brian Cronin: "Crisis is so hard for you, January."
Brian Cronin: Again, he can't say, "I didn't know how difficult this would be for you to come back to work after you have been buried in the chest."
Brian CroninInstead, it just makes it safe because there is too much brave in itself.
Eileen Gonzalez: Although, if the memory serves, the Square is a thought in the first place.
Brian CroninHowever, she is a woman.
Brian Cronin: She does not know better.
Eileen Gonzalez: Ah, of course. I forgot that she was basically a team mascot here. Being a mascot is a great hard.
Brian Cronin: I can't think of Hawkeye thinking yet to attack the Avengers to prove that it belongs to the team.
Brian Cronin: I mean, it's working, so I feel it was right
Brian Cronin: But ye.
Eileen Gonzalez: You mean that you do not enter a job interview by joking the interviewer and then interrupting your background?
Eileen Gonzalez: I'm doing a wrong interview, then.
Eileen GonzalezAlso, it's not an excuse for a crime!
Brian Cronin: The late contestant Mitch Hedberg had a very hilarious bit to remind me of this Hawkeye line …
When you go to a restaurant on weekends and it is busy they start a waiting list. They start calling out names, they say "Dufresne, party two. Dufresne, party two." And if no one responds they will say their name again. "Dufresne, party two, Dufresne, party two." But then if no one responds they will be straight on to the next name. "Bush, party three." Yes, what happened to the Dufresnes? Doesn't seem to care for anyone. Who can eat at this time? People are missing! You are selfish. These Dufresnes are in human stock now, with duct tape over their mouth. And they are hungry. That's double whammy. Bush, search party three, you can eat when you get the Dufresnes
Brian Cronin: I thought this to Hawkeye's "I didn't want to know what happened later."
Brian Cronin: Heck heck?
Brian Cronin: Why not, dude?
Brian Cronin: "I did avenge your death by being a Revenge!"
Brian Cronin: "I'm not really dead."
Brian Cronin: "Shhh … shhh … just go with it."
Eileen Gonzalez: Ha! This is great. Hawkeye, not so much.
Eileen Gonzalez: The Foiche remains attractive for some reason.
Eileen Gonzalez: I think she is looking forward to the dead Widow.
Brian Cronin: A wasp could not help but it breached one new member before leaving the team.
Eileen Gonzalez: Its trademark is it. We would be disappointed if not.
Eileen Gonzalez: (We wouldn't.)
Brian Cronin: This was Jarvis's first appearance on the Avengers pages, which is a nice piece of history.
Brian CroninOf course, Foiche cannot be expected to learn the butcher's name.
Brian Cronin: It is beneath its caste.
Eileen Gonzalez: It's not a great start for Jarvis … and it's not an ideal end for Jan.
Brian Cronin: It's very hilarious how the reform of one supervisor suddenly changed that the Animals join Namor.
Brian Cronin: For reasons …?
Brian Cronin: They suddenly decided to disturb others? Huh?
Eileen GonzalezIt is very strange that they bring Namor membership. He tried to kill them! He says he wants to control them now! But Iron Man still urges him to be princely.
Eileen Gonzalez: I know you won't find another Avenger as well as Captain America or Thor, but for you to raise your standards, man!
Brian Cronin: It's just out of nowhere.
Brian Cronin: "Hey, I think Doctor Doom would be interested?"
Brian Cronin: You know that your logic is in doubt when you have to promise to make a guy to stop the Earth commemorating before he can enter his superhero team.
Eileen Gonzalez: If Kang showed up now, they are likely to give him a membership card.
Brian CroninThat is why they gave him a few questions back to him!
Eileen Gonzalez: Kang doesn't even need to create the Spider-bot to infiltrate the team – he could connect himself.
Brian Cronin: "Oh, how could we predict that Kang would detect us from the inside?"
Brian Cronin: I always think this is, "How are Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch paying for this Swiss Sells?"
Eileen GonzalezGood question. Professor X? Magneto pretending to be a rich superhero gift?
Brian Cronin: Murder rental?
Brian Cronin: "You will have to stop murder to hire, however, if you want to enter the Avengers."
Eileen GonzalezI wonder: if Wanda and Pietro found out about the membership of the Avengers all the way in Europe, how many potpots have you powers to show up at the Avengers door, claiming that effort be made?
Brian Cronin: And how many of them did bad guys have to infiltrate the team?
Brian Cronin: I have to say, obviously this was not planned at all.
Brian CroninBut the success of Kirby and Lee Witch Quicksilver and Scarlet to leave Evil Mutualism to leave Mutants
Brian Cronin: They did well out of a ransom arcade.
Brian CroninAnd Hawkeye was brought in as a warrior before he was taken by the Black Widow, so it was also an easy redemption.
Brian Cronin: It wasn't definitely planned, but even without planning, these set up very well.
Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, despite all they gave us, it is nice that the Avengers are so willing to give a second chance to these people.
Eileen Gonzalez: They just need these things to plan a little better next time.
Brian Cronin: It also showed perfectly the power of the divided Marvel universe
Brian Cronin: For fans of time, this was very large.
Brian Cronin: The series was all "serious," because all this was the result of this.
Eileen Gonzalez: And they did not succeed the clear way, either. You would have thought that if the Maximoffs were trying to find a ransom, he would be the X-Men, but nope! They are Avengers now.
Brian Cronin: I love that we continue the tradition (the last issue) related to superheroes but to write letters to apply for gigs.
Brian Cronin: How were some dude names named worldwide in the press conference panel?
Brian Cronin: Teen Brigade never got names
Brian Cronin: But some small dude named at a press conference? Huh?
Eileen Gonzalez: My favorite reporter is someone who doesn't even have a question, he just recommends Hawkeye for being a great archer. Ten buck says that Hawkeye paid the guy to be there while he was talking to him.
Brian Cronin: Yeah, "I read about his fatigue with bow. He will be a wonderful Avenger." Um, dude, you get that you are sure that you read that in an article about how he was using his great tranquility with a bow to try to kill Iron Man, right?
Eileen Gonzalez: Details, data.
Brian Cronin: If not … maybe he read it in Pravda!
Brian Cronin: COMMISSION, CHANGERS! GET ONE!
Eileen Gonzalez: I want to read that story!
Brian Cronin: I appreciate them checking the posts to find out if they have any new members there.
Brian Cronin: Again, it is working, so they are right, my opinion is
Brian Cronin: But it's so bad.
Eileen Gonzalez: And Iron Man using his transistor beams to give him the jobs as he is too lazy to move.
Eileen Gonzalez: But, sure, this is for "practice."
Brian Cronin: A great trip by Cap and Rick.
Brian Cronin: This should be the majority of the question.
Eileen Gonzalez: Yes! We might have watched them by always turning the alligators. Instead we get the Avengers at the opening of the post.
Brian Cronin: The jaguar panel was epic!
Brian Cronin: How long did it take Quicksilver and Scarlet witch to travel to New York from Switzerland on an ocean liner?
Brian Cronin: So can not be quick, can he?
Brian Cronin: The boy, the rick and the cap must be stuck down very much.
Brian Cronin: It is interesting that no one doubts whether Cap is still alive.
Eileen Gonzalez: Yes, you think they'd be worried about it. Either they are extremely confident in Cap capability or are not cared for at all.
Eileen Gonzalez: Not to say anything about Rick! Do they even know it's missing?
Brian Cronin: "I accepted that he died on our mission to the Arctic."
Eileen Gonzalez: "It's okay, Teen Brigadiers strength is left."
Brian Cronin: Isn't it odd that the Scarlet Woman did not need to demonstrate her powers in this issue?
Brian Cronin: That, like, should not be like giving the readers an understanding of what powers she has?
Brian Cronin: If Kirby and Lee were not sure they were themselves
Eileen Gonzalez: Yes, I kept waiting for that to happen, but they spent all their time showing much less interesting Quicksilver powers.
Eileen GonzalezI mean it's cool that it can be running fast, but that hexagonal power is colder to look at.
Eileen Gonzalez: Quicksilver has no promise but his power is fascinating, but we never see him.
Brian Cronin: The Cap reunification with the Avengers is a-DOR-capable.
Eileen Gonzalez: It is! The Giant-man is thrown into the air so big.
Eileen Gonzalez: Of course, the mood is destroyed two minutes later when Cap gets the news.
Brian Cronin: The segment is talking to their brilliant villains.
Brian Cronin: "I live in the future, but I am continuing these developments in the past very closely for reasons …."
Eileen Gonzalez: Kang, you can learn how this ends now if you want! Try harder!
Eileen Gonzalez: As with Immortus, I'm pretty sure.
Brian CroninOne of the things that attracts me is Iron Man's bit as he walks out about how he will never forget those words, "Avengers comes together." Dude, the sentence has only been six issues since then!
Brian CroninHowever, Kirby and Lee do a great job showing the great amount involved in this Marvel Universe. The public hates mutants and Spider-Man, but they love them Avengers and that's all because of things like this.
Eileen Gonzalez: It's also so bad that Iron Man is talking about the old people going on to the new when the Avengers are not so old yet.
Eileen GonzalezBut I like a little light of sadness, however. Very dramatic.
Brian Cronin: Is it funny that we never get Thor's response to this?
Brian Cronin: "Oh, I'm out of the team?"
Brian Cronin: Shrugs
Brian Cronin: "Okay."
Brian Cronin: This last panel is fantastic, with Cap introducing the team and saying the iconic battle of the Avengers that was already similar.
Brian Cronin: "Okay, just for you reporters, 'Avengers Fight!
Eileen Gonzalez: With only unrest from Hawkeye on everyone, while Quicksilver is sticking his angle in his face.
Brian CroninThe other great thing that Kirby and Lee did is that they set up the next issue
Brian Cronin: So that is caused by fans to stick around
Brian Cronin: Even if they were wary of this new team.
Brian Cronin: "The hunt for the Hulk."
Brian Cronin: This is a smart idea.
Brian Cronin: "Okay, I feel I can't miss them fighting with the Hulk again."
Brian Cronin: And, once again, he goes back to the Hulk!
Eileen Gonzalez: Yeah, they know that Hulk sent each question back. It is a great way to highlight.
Brian Cronin: What is a historical issue.
Brian Cronin: They really have a nice roll here after the indifference of # 14.
Brian CroninOf course, Kirby leaves after this issue, but he still made a big impact on the time she needed them.
Eileen Gonzalez: I guess the next time we'll see if the new people can keep the momentum going!
Brian Cronin: What could be wrong?
Christopher Priest from Deathstroke on death & permanent legacy of DC Villain